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India’s Rural Economy May Have Bottomed Out, Says Enam’s Sridhar Sivaram

Sridhar Sivaram expects further rationalisation and eventual reduction in GST rates



Sridhar Sivaram, Director, Enam Holdings (Source: BloombergQuint) 
Sridhar Sivaram, Director, Enam Holdings (Source: BloombergQuint) 

Welcoming the government’s recent decision to cut excise duty on petrol and diesel, Enam Holdings’ Sridhar Sivaram said India’s tax rates need to come down further.

India is in a unique situation of a weak economy along with inflated asset prices and the government should capitalise on that to sell some of its assets. This will help the Centre reduce its tax rates and manage the fiscal deficit which is already 96.2 percent of the target for fiscal 2017-18, Sivaram said on BloombergQuint’s weekly series Thank God It’s Friday.

He expects further rationalisation and eventual reduction in the Goods and Services Tax rates as the government gains confidence from the tax collection figures.

Here are edited excerpts of the interview.

Pause In EM Rally?

Did you see the emerging market rally faltering as we head towards December?

If you see the overall performance of emerging markets this year, most countries have given at least 15-20 percent returns. If you look at China, it’s up almost 45 percent this year. We have seen a broad-based rally and also barring India where the GDP numbers have been coming down, most economies are seeing a marginal uptick in their GDP growth. Most emerging markets have seen good GDP and earnings performance. I don’t see that faltering too much. Maybe given the strong rally, we could see a pause in the rally itself.

It’s difficult to imagine that after a 25 percent emerging market rally, we could see this continue at the same pace next year. May be there will be a pause for 6-odd months and it will start after that.

By then we will know more about what happens in the U.S., positioning of Fed and way the commentary is. A lot of that will depend on the commentary of the Federal Reserve. Otherwise, I don’t see Fed action of too much impact, because they will be very calibrated in their approach.

GST And Impact On Tax-To-GDP Ratio

Are these concerns on the Indian economy valid?

Lot of it is well documented. That India is going through some structural reforms. In the past, we have heard complaints from many market participators that we haven’t seen reforms. Very often, when you see such structural reforms, it does have its own pain which comes along with that, which we are seeing with GST and demonetisation.

My own belief is that FY18-19, we will see a significant increase in tax-to-GDP in India. Not only in the indirect tax, people underestimate that the direct tax could also see significant improvement because if you are not declaring a lot of your sales as a trader or small entrepreneur, suddenly because of GST you start declaring that. It also has implications on the direct tax because suddenly if you are showing sales, you have to show profits.

People are underestimating the tax-to-GDP impact that GST can have. Not only on the indirect tax side. But I am bullish on the direct tax side. Because in indirect tax we have seen numbers broadly in line and it will grow over a period of time but direct tax side will also see a significant improvement. I am not so worried. Given that the markets have already rallied, some of the benefits of that is getting priced in. So, we will see how it goes. But I am not concerned about short-term blips which we are seeing in GDP and the macro numbers.

‘GST Rates May Head Lower’

So you don’t see too much tweaking as far as the GST rates are concerned?

I believe that tax rates should be lower. I am very happy that the government has reduced the excise duty on petrol and that has been our constant request whenever we meet bureaucrats. When indirect tax is very high – it is a very regressive tax because the rich and the poor pay the same tax. On prices of petrol and diesel, the taxes are so high that it does have an impact on overall consumption in the economy. This is the easiest way of transferring wealth. If you reduce Rs 2, then in a 6 months period you can transfer Rs 15,000 crore of wealth to people who are using petrol and diesel, which is almost to everybody, starting from a taxi guy, autorickshaw guy, truck driver or a middle class. We think this is very positive. One of our suggestion was that it should be reduced even more and you can offset this by selling some of the assets that the government has, which is the SUUTI stake they have.

It’s a unique situation in India were the economy is not doing so well but asset prices are inflated which is great for the government, that you can reduce tax rates and manage fiscal deficit by selling assets.

When the economy does well, it’s easier to increase tax rates and the economy can absorb that much better. We are very happy that they have done that. We think that some of the changes may happen even for GST. We think that 12 and 18 percent rates will get merged in between. So, we will see what that exact number will be. But we do think that this tax rationalisation will be very good. As the government gets more confidence on the tax revenue collection, we are sure these rates will come down overall.

Need For Stimulus

Do you think at this point the economy requires some stimulus boost? What would it really take to get India back to 8 percent GDP and how long will it be?

I think that we need some booster because what we have done with the two structural reforms is, we have shaken up the informal economy – both demonetisation, and GST. And keeping in mind that they were a large part of the consumption economy, we do see a slowdown in consumption. Which we have seen over the last six months. It will continue for a while, if the government had not given some fiscal stimulus which they have already done. We think that a monetary stimulus would have also helped but the RBI needed to do this much earlier. In fact, in February when they changed their stance based on an average inflation number of 4.5, we made the point that the number is so outlandish that we can never reach it. We almost needed 12-15 percent month-on-month inflation to reach that number, it was so absurd. I believe the RBI needs to give an explanation as to how they got the number, now that they have reduced it. So, instead of changing the stance, the time to give the monetary stimulus was sometime in February, March or April. We saw inflation coming down to 1.9 percent. Now the scope and room is much lesser because we are going to head towards inflation closer to 4.5 percent. Even then, I believe monetary stimulus is possible because RBI has given a range, which is 4 percent +/-2 percent. So, it is still within their range. When growth is lower, the central bank has the leeway to stimulate growth along with what the government is doing. But that’s best decided by the central bank.

Eye On 2019

In the run-up to the 2019 general elections, how could they play their cards when it comes to the economy?

It is reasonably clear from the government’s policies that they are not looking at the election or election-related moves. Demonetisation and GST hurt some of their core constituency which is small traders and people who are in the business community. It’s very clear at this stage that the government is looking at some structural long-term reforms and I am very happy that they have done that. We will have to wait and see how it progresses as we reach closer to 2019.

At the same time, if the government has to do some social reforms...and we have seen many of those like Swachh Bharat, making of toilets across rural India, the subsidies that they gave, the Ujjwala Yojna which is very good. I have gone to rural areas, and that has been a massive hit with people who do not have cooking gas. People at the grass-root level find this a game changer. They are balancing it well right now.

I am not worried that come 2019, they will not be as fiscally prudent as they are right now. But at the time when the economy is not doing so well, it’s fine to give some fiscal stimulus and there are ways to manage your fiscal deficit.

Rural Push

A word on the state of the rural economy especially after demonetisation, the monsoon season with the backdrop that the government is aiming to double farm incomes by 2022.

Doubling of farm incomes by 2020 seems like a very ambitious target and they really don’t know what the roadmap is. For that they will need to do multiple agri reforms which include pushing the state governments since a lot of these are state subjects – the APMC and the mandis and the way they operate, prices that farmers get, building of cold storage as there is wastage when it comes to fruits and vegetables, and how the government addresses many of these things.

Based on discussions with companies that are in the rural space, we think there is a turnaround in rural incomes and we have seen that in the tractor numbers recently. The belief is that the rural economy has troughed out and we are seeing a turnaround in that. I will not go by one-month data. So I will wait and see for few more months. According to past data, the urban economy has done much better than rural. When you see two-wheelers or when you see FMCG companies which are more urban-focused versus slightly rural focused, we have seen the volume growth numbers are significantly different – urban players have done better. So, I would want to wait and see for a few more quarters to believe that the rural economy is toughing.

An early sign suggests that the rural economy may have troughed out and we have seen a turnaround in the rural economy.

Corporate Earnings: More Pain Left?

Are we looking at the risk of downgrades in FY19 as well?

We saw some early signs of recovery in earnings in the second half of last year, which is just before demonetisation. The fourth quarter saw earnings growth of 15-16 percent. Then we had GST and we had a sharp earning downgrade. We are hearing that a lot of it is because of destocking and some of this has played out in the the current quarter. Because there was destocking, we are seeing some restocking and earnings would pick up in this quarter.

Even though the current consensus estimate is around 20 percent, we may come closer to 15 percent. 

My own thesis is that just the interest cost saving – we have seen transmission from 100 to 150 basis point across the board if you take a year-on-year comparison, post demonetisation we have seen huge decline in deposit rates and lending rates. One percent fall in interest rates contributes to about 10 percent earnings growth for the economy. So, if you take $40 trillion as the total debt to corporates, and one percent of that is $400 billion and the total profit pool is about $4 trillion. So, $400 billion of $4 trillion is roughly 10 percent. This also very high because keep in mind that India’s profit-to-GDP ratio is at a 12-15-year low. Normally, it will not have such a huge swing but we have seen low profitability over the last 3-4 years. So even a 1 percent swing has a disproportionate impact. My belief is that it is roughly 10 percent because of interest cost savings, and maybe 4-5 percent of normalised earnings growth will lead us to around 15 percent. It may not be for all companies. Some are cash surplus companies, the highly leveraged companies may not have enough earnings to show anyway but on an average, that is the math that I am working on.

New Normal For Equities?

The price-to-earnings ratio for Nifty 500 is currently around 25-26 times. The previous 5-year average is 20-21 times. Is this the new normal? Are these equities will be trading at these levels?

It has to be seen in the context of where the interest rates are. The cost of capital right now is much lower so people are giving a much higher market multiple. I may not completely agree with all valuations of companies that are trading right now. There are pockets where we see valuations are quite stretched. It’s a balance that one has to maintain at times like this, where liquidity is strong, earnings are at best average, but the market is pricing in a lot of growth. I am not very bearish on the market. I don’t see market correcting too much. Given the strong upmove and far from buoyant earnings, we could see sideways movement for a period. We have seen the market hit 10,000 in July and we are still in and around that. If in another  4-5 months, the market is trading in the same area, we would start discounting next year’s numbers. Hopefully, by then GST and other factors could stabilise. That gives us an opportunity to get good earnings growth.

Favoured Themes

Rank these areas in the order of preference: consumption, capex linked, and commodities.

Consumption, commodity, capex.

Risks Associated With NBFCs

You have not been a big fan of NBFCs. That comes as a surprise given the returns we have seen from these names.

Not all NBFCs. But I have concerns about housing finance companies in particular. Because these companies are no longer mortgage companies. Almost 40-45 percent of their loan book is now to builders, to LAP [loan against property] or to corporates and only about 60-70 percent is mortgage. And you can’t make money on core mortgage because banks are very aggressive there. If you can get mortgage at 8-8.5 percent, it’s very difficult for an NBFC to make money. So they make more money by taking higher risk. If this was the portfolio for a bank, the market wouldn’t have given a one-time price to book and we are seeing the market giving 5-6 times price-to-book because it has very stable NPA portfolio. My own belief is that with GST and demonetisation many of these housing finance companies will face issues, especially on LAP. People say they lend based on cash flows which are not there in the books and they are very good at analysing some of this. This is a challenge and I would be very careful, especially with the ones which do not have enough mortgage.

The other thing I am concerned is with the microfinance institutions because we have seen issues for MFIs due to demonetisation. We have seen credit rating agencies downgrade many of the MFIs. Yet the markets seem to have ignored the credit rating agencies.

I would be very careful in that space because MFI lending is sub-prime, unsecured lending. So this is right at the bottom. You have to be very careful when the economy is going through a major change like what we are seeing right now. So those are some of my broad concerns with NBFCs. We are very selective in that space right now.

‘Poor’ Real Estate Demand

How are you reading demand in the real estate sector?

Demand is not great. From the reports we get and the available reports in public domain on the vacancy of finished houses, it is very clear that demand is poor. Along with the Real Estate Regulation Act, there is also a GST element to real estate now. Maybe it is not very well documented but there is an anomaly here. If you buy a finished house, there is no GST. If you buy an under-construction house, you have to pay GST. So, I as a consumer am better of buying a completed property because I save 4-5 percent on tax. If I am a real estate developer, I want my investor to come in when the construction is on because I get offsets. But there is a conflict of interest here. The real estate builder is not always passing on all benefits to the customer for the offsets that he is getting. The smart buyers are waiting out, not wanting to buy when it is under-construction because he has to pay 4-5 percent more.

Given all this confusion, the pain in real estate will continue for some more time. Some of the larger builders will be able to play out some of the transitional regulatory changes. But some of the smaller builders will find it very difficult. I will stay away from that sector.

Bad Loan Clean-Up

Does the asset quality picture continue to look hazy?

It’s a consensus that you are better off with the private sector but we are looking at some state-owned banks. We believe that the entire bankruptcy procedure currently underway will have significant impact on the banks because it will have a time-bound program where you have to finish the restructuring of an NPA within 6-9 months or it goes into liquidation. Many of the banks were hesitating to sign on the dotted line because they were worried what would happen – CAG audit, CBI inquiry and stuff like that. Now, that this is a very documented regulatory process, and we have an RBI Oversight Committee for this, I think the process is much more streamlined. Closer to January-February we will get much more clarity because by then we would complete six months with the first 12-13 cases which went into bankruptcy. We think that banks have already provided in the range of 40-50 percent for many of these cases. We don’t think too much more is required to be provided, especially on the steel companies, they may have to provide for some others. But the good part is at least we know what the loss is. Otherwise we are all guessing. Everybody has their own numbers on how much loss the banks have to take.

We do think the bankruptcy process is a game changer and will help banks move ahead with the NPA issue.

Also, the other promoter sitting on the sidelines and watching this process then will realize I will lose my business for the first time in the Indian corporate history. After defaulting, you do a restructuring and you come back in a new avatar and take fresh loans and then default again in the next cycle and this goes on. This possibly will be the first time that we will see that the Indian promoter may lose control of his company and if that does happen then that could be a good example. Some of the other promoters will line up to pay back. This is a time-bound program and we are reasonably constructive on this process. As a result, we are looking at some of the PSU names too.

‘Staying Away From Recent IPOs’

In the primary markets you have an IPO and it is fundamentally sound but overpriced. Yes, it gets massively oversubscribed. The retail guys get no allocations. It lists at a premium. The retail guys say that we will wait for better valuations. Six months later it is at even higher prices. What does one do in a situation like that?

I will give you an example. In 2007 and early 2008, there were two blockbuster IPOs and we didn’t participate in either of those. The first was around Rs 500 which went to around Rs 1,200 in six months, and in a years’ time it was in two digits. So, markets can be irrational for a period of time. It can test the investor’s patience and his ability to analyze and rationally think. And one doesn’t have to participate in everything that is going up. If you get stuck in some of these IPOs that are coming are massively overpriced. I can’t even imagine why I have to pay these valuations when I am getting similar and slightly better companies at a much lower valuation in the listed space.

We have stayed away from most of the IPOs especially in last 3-4 months.

You have to trade carefully right now because there is excess liquidity. People don’t know where to put money and they are seeing the benefit. But some of the recent IPOs haven’t opened with the same fanfare. So it’s only prudent to be careful and not get carried away. That’s my general advice. I don’t think these IPOs are valued anywhere close to where they should.