Joanne Lipman on Speaking Up for Women in the Workplace

Your book convincingly argues that both men and women discriminate against working women. Why does that happen?

What we’re talking about is unconscious bias. Everyone—women, men, black, white—has biases that are buried so deeply inside that they don’t realize they exist. These biases come out in subtle but important ways. For example, women are interrupted three times as often as men, and when women do it, they tend to interrupt women.

What would you say to executives whose solution to #MeToo is to avoid one-on-ones with women?

I have zero patience for it. Absolutely none. Because most of them are men who were not mentoring women in the first place, so it’s an excuse.

So, many men still feel they’re walking on eggshells?

If men have questions about appropriate behavior, just ask. Women are generally not going to be offended. For example, I met a male business friend who I had not seen in a while. We met for a drink. We walked into a restaurant, and he gave me a hug and then immediately said, “Is that OK?” And I said, “Yes, it’s totally fine, I’m a hugger. But I’m really glad you asked, because it might be uncomfortable to the next woman.”

How can women subtly help other women?

Three ways. First, interrupt the interrupters: Say, “Oh, Betsy is speaking. I would love to hear her finish.” Some companies now have No Interruptions rules. Second, amplify: When a woman says something, another woman repeats her idea, giving her credit by name. And my favorite is brag buddies: Two women recount their achievements to each other, and then each one goes to the boss and brags about the other.

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